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Weird Clutch


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48 replies to this topic

#1 sidcos

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 12:00 AM

Hi,
Just bought a galaxy '53 1.9tdi 76K on clock. Cluch pedal wouldn't return fully and occasionaly I'd have to lift it with my foot. Took it to my usual garage and he reckoned slave cylinder. In any case, I thought for age and after reading up, may as well do the the clutch and flywheel, oh and master for good measure.
1 week later and pedal is almost the same, occasionaly refuses to fully return or is delayed coming back up and now sometimes gear stick gets stuck in first and reverse and have to pull the lever pretty hard to get into neutral, other times it's fine? All gear changes whilst driving are very smooth otherwise and no noises coming from the box.
Any pointers appreciated!
Thanks

#2 tim-spam

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Posted 14 December 2009 - 04:08 PM

Try bleeding the clutch with a pressurised bleeder.

By the way, assuming reasonable use, a clutch should last much longer than 76k.

Edited by tim-spam, 14 December 2009 - 04:09 PM.


#3 sidcos

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Posted 14 December 2009 - 04:18 PM

Thanks for the tip, I'll try it.
BTW, the guy I bought it from was very untidy and seemed to use it more as a van. He didn't even know how to pop the bonnet!!

Edited by sidcos, 14 December 2009 - 04:23 PM.


#4 marcostig

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Posted 17 December 2009 - 10:56 PM

Wooo mines on original clutch, now got 136.000 miles clutch is smooth and light..not sure why you got that sort of problem,would think a slave cylinder issue.

#5 BigDog

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Posted 17 December 2009 - 11:42 PM

Hey Sidcos, Yesterday my 53 Alhambra tdi 115bhp (AUY engine) with 132k miles started giving similar symptoms:
Wife said had probs engaging 1st and reverse also smelling like a train.
After I test drove I found that clutch was dragging but if you leave the pedal down 5 seconds its normal. Once on the move gear changes are normal. Although I didn't provoke it into clutch slippage, (the opposite problem to dragging usually, which would explain the smell) I am guessing this has got to be to do with the hydraulics.
Normally if there is air in clutch or brake hydraulics then pumping helps. In this case it helps if you give it time - like there's a blockage somewhere causing a delay in the fluid moving.
I am wondering if the flexible hose is breaking up inside, causing the blockage. Sidcos, might be worth checking that, I'm planning to.
Anyone had a hose go that way?
The pedal is always quick to rise back up, but there is something I noticed over a year ago which I never investigated and which has suddenly got worse. Bit tricky to explain but here goes:
You are driving along, happen to be resting your foot lightly on the clutch (not that I ride the clutch), accelerating gently. Coming off the accelerator, you get engine braking, but the clutch pedal instantly kicks up about half inch, back on the gas, it sinks the same amount, this is repeatable.
That has me totally stumped.

Anyone got any ideas before i go and lie under it in a nice comforting snowstorm tomorrow morning :lol: ?

Many thanks

#6 sepulchrave

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Posted 18 December 2009 - 12:13 AM

Wooo mines on original clutch, now got 136.000 miles clutch is smooth and light..not sure why you got that sort of problem,would think a slave cylinder issue.


Bully for you, I'm sure the OP is massively reassured and enlightened by that contribution. :lol:

OP et al:

It definitely sounds as though your clutch/clutch mechanism is not disengaging properly.

sidcos, it sounds like your garage hasn't done the job you've paid them for, if you've had the whole lot replaced how can you still have the same problem?

BigDog, I'd be very surprised if the flexi has a blockage, have you checked the engine roll restrictor and gearbox mount for movement?

#7 BigDog

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Posted 18 December 2009 - 07:14 AM

I'll check those Sepulchrave, ta. I'm pretty sure the bottom most support arm thingy (roll restrictor? no.21 in the attached) got replaced last spring, not recently getting clonks etc.. Is the gearbox mount you're talking about no.1?

Maybe I'm being thick, but can't quite see how movement in the engine / gearbox mountings translates to movement in the clutch pedal but I'm prepared to give the things a damn good levering to check.

What's the best way to check? Maybe apply handbrake (hard), watch engine movement with bonnet open while wife tries to pull away in 1st then reverse? How much movement is too much, and where?
We've got 4" snow in St Albans this morning - above test likely impossible without wheelspin, LOL.

Cheers,

Matt

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#8 samyuen

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Posted 18 December 2009 - 05:42 PM

I also have a Galaxy 03, with exactly the same problem. The clutch pedal drops when you relase the throttle and comes back up when you acclerate. Had new flywheel and clutch only 2 weeks ago, all worked well for about a week. Back to the garage today, they said it's the master cyclinder. Can anyone advice whether that could be the problem?

#9 sidcos

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Posted 18 December 2009 - 10:21 PM

Wooo mines on original clutch, now got 136.000 miles clutch is smooth and light..not sure why you got that sort of problem,would think a slave cylinder issue.


Bully for you, I'm sure the OP is massively reassured and enlightened by that contribution. :lol:

OP et al:

It definitely sounds as though your clutch/clutch mechanism is not disengaging properly.

sidcos, it sounds like your garage hasn't done the job you've paid them for, if you've had the whole lot replaced how can you still have the same problem?

BigDog, I'd be very surprised if the flexi has a blockage, have you checked the engine roll restrictor and gearbox mount for movement?


Thanks all.
Samyuen, I had both master and slave changed too, as well as clutch and flywheel!
Big Dog, another thing I notice is that when I suddenly come of the power, it sounds as if something is loose, mounting type noise under the box. As for bleeding, the garage claim they have done already?
sepulchrave, when it is stuck in first, it's definatley not disengaging properly as car will move slowly even with clutch fully pressed down?
I'm kind of at a loss. Changed everything barr the box! Just to summarise:
the only problem when car went in was noisy clutch and pedal not returning; now clutch pedal still not returning fully, although pops back up when accelerator pedal is pressed and now getting stuck in first and reverse occasionaly. As mentioned, when stuck in first car moves forward even if pedal is fully pressed down. Once vehicle is in motion gear changes are fine.
I'm back in the garage tomorrow so will get back.
How I wish I'd kept my A6...

Sid

Edited by sidcos, 18 December 2009 - 10:23 PM.


#10 BigDog

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Posted 19 December 2009 - 11:20 AM

Update: glad I'm not the only one with a clutch pedal moving on its own.

I measured the engine roll movement by getting the wife to engage 1st then reverse and try to pull away with the handbrake on. The front-back movement at the engine oil filler is less than 10mm total i.e. < +5mm for forward and < -5mm for reverse. I think that's OK?
There's no clonk, except the very very slight one you naturally get from the final drive when changing from pulling to pushing? This morning (-4degC in St Albans) the problem has almost disappeared. I found that some 'nana hadn't tightened the brake fluid cap fully, so did so, but had to disconnect the low level warning sensor to do it, as it was stiff in the cap. Thought I'd check to see if that provoked a warning lamp on the dash (engine running) - it didn't! I guess it must be a normally open float switch or I've got another fault...anyway plenty of not-so-nice-looking fluid...(bit grey, need to change).

The flexi hose is underneath the ABS distributor, you can see one end of it if you peer between the coolant tank and the fuel filter. Looks like quite a few things will have to come off to gain access, but at least I won't need to lie in the slush for too long - mostly top access. I'll need to bleed the clutch hydraulics if I take the pipe off to blow through it, but - I have one of those Gunson Easybleed things which I suppose qualifies as a pressure bleeder. From Elsawin you are meant to bleed at 2bar (30psi?) which is a bit high for Easybleed. Also I can''t see how air comes out of the slave cylinder as the bleed nipple is on a union upstream (just where it enters the bellhousing)? :lol: No wonder it is difficult to bleed? What genius designed this part?

Sidcos, this clonk(?) when you come off the power could be a number of things. On mine it was the lower gearbox mounting support arm last year which cured that - no.21 in the diagram which you should be able to see once you have 5 posts. I had a garage do that and they took a long while to suss it out, had to put the gearbox under load while on a lift and watch the movement. Also the anti-roll bar bushes and the drop-links can give clonks but more
likely to be heard over speed bumps than when on/off the power.

#11 sidcos

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 08:15 AM

Thanks BigDog I'll check it out. Is the lower gearbox mounting support arm a dealer only part if required?
Oh and the garage didn't bother to check the car which they promised to do!! :lol:

#12 BigDog

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 10:02 AM

Thanks BigDog I'll check it out. Is the lower gearbox mounting support arm a dealer only part if required?
Oh and the garage didn't bother to check the car which they promised to do!! :lol:

sidcos, I recall the garage got a dealer part and fitted it, but it seems you can get pattern parts, Febi Bilstein do one so I guess any of the parts guys should be able to get it:

http://www.teiledire...1499729/refID/2

There is some sort of decription and photo here in German, you can click the union jack for an amusing/frustrating translation:

http://www.sgaf.de/n...#comment-286963

Comment #1 links to more photos.

So, now my main problem of gear selection has gone away - but the pedal movement is just the same, WTF is going on? The wife doesn't want to use the car, so I am swapping cars with her (probably safer in case it slips I can recognise that and not burn the lining). If I take it to a garage they are going to want to change the clutch and slave and maybe master and DMF for good measure, and from experience here that's not going to fix it.
On the sgaf website I have found a hint that the problems could be crankshaft bearing axial wear (!!!) but I don't really believe that; see comment #2 here:

http://tinyurl.com/yc3jt8a

NB: Kurbelwellenlageraxialspiel = crankshaft bearing axial movement

A mate of mine told me his concentric slave piston fell out inside the bell housing and it happened twice then he got rid of the car....on a Sharan tdi AUY '52...

Any more thoughts gratefully received.

#13 sidcos

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 11:42 PM

BigDog, can you remind me how you solved the gear seletion problem? I can live with the pedal not fully returning, but gear selection is a pain especially when the mrs takes it out!

#14 BigDog

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Posted 21 December 2009 - 01:23 PM

sidcos, bizarrely, the problem "fixed" itself overnight i.e. I can now select 1st and reverse without waiting 5-10 seconds with the pedal held down. Drove the car to work this morning (36m, mostly fast A roads) no problem. But of course, it is going to come back, probably next time I get in a traffic jam.

I haven't bled the hydraulics yet.

The only thing I did after it seemed to fix itself was pumped the clutch up and down (full range of pedal movement, holding at the bottom a few seconds and releasing quickly at the top) 100 times. (I had been wondering if the driven plate was sliding properly on the gearbox input shaft splines, if it was sticking then I thought that might cause drag and difficulty selecting 1st and reverse).

By the way, the reason that reverse is impossible to select is that on our cars, reverse has (at least partial) synchromesh, which normally prevents the gears crunching if you try to select reverse while moving, however with clutch drag then the same sychromesh stops reverse being selected. Without reverse sychromesh and a dragging clutch we would get nasty grinding noises instead when trying to select reverse.

I still can't really see a good reason how the clutch pedal can move on its own, though I haven't looked yet for how these dual mass flywheels (DFMs) work. Maybe there is the possibility of the pressure plate moving in and out, pushing the driven plate back against the slave cylinder. If the driven plate is sticking a little on the gearbox input shaft splines, and the gearbox input shaft has at least some endfloat, and slides from one end of that endfloat to the other end when coming on and off the power, maybe (bit of a long shot here) that explains it.

Can anyone with knowledge of how the DMF is constructed confirm whether or not this is a possiblity?

#15 spanny

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 10:46 AM

Hi guys, this clutch creep and pedal loss your getting is going to be down to the hydraulics... Clutch clearance on a modern day clutch is 1.5mm approx and if you have air in the system then your not going to be disengaging the clutch correctly.

I work for a leading Clutch + DMF supplier.... i wont say who but i know the problems your experienceing as we see them back occasionally alot, and when we test the clutch for clutch clearance they are to OE specification On these vehicles there is a bleed valve (T piece with a nipple on) which has a valve in there... dependent on mileage / use of the vehicle im thinking this valve can become faulty, allowing fluid to return to the reservoir before you have re engaged the clutch. With regards to dirty fluid, this can cause contamination in the system so it is advised to flush the whole system, inc the brake lines aswell and hopefully this should cure the problem. Like i said we are looking into this and trying to get out to a garrage at some point next year to see if we can resolve the problem and get some technical articles out on how to resolve the issue.
Regards
Daniel

#16 spanny

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 10:50 AM

I still can't really see a good reason how the clutch pedal can move on its own, though I haven't looked yet for how these dual mass flywheels (DFMs) work. Maybe there is the possibility of the pressure plate moving in and out, pushing the driven plate back against the slave cylinder. If the driven plate is sticking a little on the gearbox input shaft splines, and the gearbox input shaft has at least some endfloat, and slides from one end of that endfloat to the other end when coming on and off the power, maybe (bit of a long shot here) that explains it.

Can anyone with knowledge of how the DMF is constructed confirm whether or not this is a possiblity?

Hi matey,
Like i said above, i work for a world leading DMF manufacturer.... our DMF will be on your vehicle. I cant send you a link to the video as im at work at present, but go onto youtube and type in dual mass flywheel. There is a good video on there which explains/demonstrates how a dmf works.

Basically a stanadard drive plate with the springs in them (Torsion Damper) has a maximum deflection of around 20 degrees, a DMF has maximum deflection of around 60 degrees so you get alot more damping from a DMF for the same curcumference of the clutch driven plate. Of course you can put bigger springs into the drive plate, but this then eats in to the contact area of the clutch lining.
Regards
Daniel

#17 BigDog

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Posted 25 December 2009 - 02:57 PM

Spanny-Daniel,
Welcome to the group, Merry Christmas and thanks for the "inside advice". Still no repeat of my problem of creep / drag. Hopefully I'll get the chance to take off the T-piece bleeder valve and check/clean/renew it between Christmas and NY.
Do you know the function of the valve in the T-piece bleeder and how one might test it?
Afterward I'll bleed it as best I can - Elsawin has instructions I can paste here if anyone needs them.
Do you have an explanation for the clutch pedal moving on its own?
Cheers, Matt

#18 sidcos

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Posted 27 December 2009 - 10:15 PM

Thanks Spanny, bled clutch and much better. Goes into first and reverse smoothly, although very rarely now tricky getting out of reverse. May try bleeding again.
Thanks for all advice chaps!!

#19 sidcos

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 08:57 AM

Firstly happy new year all!
Well my gear change issues are back ;)
Tricky getting first and reverse, although if you try selecting another gear first then select first or reverse it's fine. On other occasions first and reverse selection is ok?? And quite often when first and reverse has been selected its very difficult to change gear without brute force. However saying that, first is usually ok as long as you are moving, but reverse is painful?
Could I have not bled it thoroughly enough? Just to repeat, I've changed dmf,clutch-complete, master and slave cylinder.
Thanks

#20 sssflyer

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 12:40 PM

I Have similar problems exaxctly as you describe on 53 plate tdi 115 galaxy
have you noticed that the problem could be agravated by weather or wet damp road conditions? Mine seems to work perfectly in dry weather also when left overnight pedal "normalises " but then plays up as soon as it gets damp or sticky have also noticed that on long runs on motorway were pedal has not been depressed for some considerable time pedal resistance disappears altogether and difficult to pump back whereas in heavy traffic holding pedal beyond free travel point seems to maintain pressure. aqm new on this forum but am impressed by the everyday attitude to problems in lay mens terms and a pro blem sharedcertainly reduces the paranoia.my experience of large mileage driving is that even the very best vhicles by reputation can throw up the strangest of anomallies eventually though it does seem that this clutch thingy has become quite inherent thanks again for letting me participate.